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Author Topic:   Blue Arabian Horse Catalog / Blue List horses
Pete Hiatt
Member
posted 04 June 2002 12:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pete Hiatt   Click Here to Email Pete Hiatt     Edit/Delete Message
I agree, Hansi.

They gave us a great start. Raswan wrote for so many years that it is understandable that he contradicted himself at times. This is true of individuals in many different fields outside of horses. It also can reflect getting information from different sources which contradict each other. It is amazing how little disagreement there is between the different organizations.

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Cedarhurst
Member
posted 04 June 2002 08:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cedarhurst   Click Here to Email Cedarhurst     Edit/Delete Message
Good morning Mr Hiatt

I see, now I understand and agree.
I feel, that if people know their pedigrees,
dig a little deeper in the past, compare what the breeding achievements were based on present pedigrees, there would be no problem.

I also agree that Al Khamsa has and is doing a fine job and has excellent researchers on board. I even gave them credit in my Straight Egyptian Indexes.
My beef is against politics, personal motives,and with it sometimes harming our fellow breeders.

We know, that Mrs Ott basically listened to Raswan, Raswan researched through herdbooks/studbooks/registries to arrive at his conclusions. Mrs Ott copied most all of it, because she could also not possibly have seen all the entries, neither did Raswan.

Raswan also was a bit on the romantic side,
some of his work in German are contracdictory, and he even at times displayed his good or bad mood when publishing.

The good thing about both parties is, that we all had a "start" with their entries to research further, and that is the greatest gift they could have given to us.I deeply respect and admire both.

While I myself am a romantizist in some arears, most certainly not when it comes to research, there I am very critical and
objective. I also consider who writes what,
trying to see through such authors eyes,
understanding what experiences such has,and how much of it I can believe.

Anyway, I think we are on the same wavelenght.

Have a great day
Hansi

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Pete Hiatt
Member
posted 03 June 2002 07:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pete Hiatt   Click Here to Email Pete Hiatt     Edit/Delete Message
Becky, you misread me. I have nothing agaist any Blue Star horses. I may not have ever even seen one. What I find is that it is extremely ostentacious for a non-Arab to leave out one of the major strains simply because she didn't like the look. That silly view left the best of the asil horses off her list and make it of no interest to me.

Hansi, my point was that the bedu disagree on who the five strains actually were. However, they seem to all agree upon Kuhailan and Muniqui being two of them. Therefore, for a non-Arab like Mrs Ott to arbitrarily leave off a major strain because she didn't like the look is presumptuous. I am sure the bedu have no interest in Western classifications.

I'll say again that the works of Mrs Ott of many years ago were of great value in saving asil lines by allowing breeding within known asil lines. However, that was 30 years ago and the Al Khamsa organisation is doing a fine job carrying on with that tradition. I personally feel the "Blue" is best served by being a footnote in history. It is the newer organisations that I feel are self serving.

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Cedarhurst
Member
posted 03 June 2002 08:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cedarhurst   Click Here to Email Cedarhurst     Edit/Delete Message
Good morning everybody

due to lack of time etc, may I reply to various posts.

Mr Hiatt, did I understand correctly, that the Bedu tribes of today know of Al Khamsa and Blue Star, Blue List Aabians?
I did not know this. it had to be recent, because on my travels up to 1998 in the Middle East/Regions- the delegates of some
never heard of it.

Becky
Al Khamsa and the Blue Catalogue is rather intermingelt, I thought?

Yes, Al Khamsa has and is doing a great job.
Every organization has someone on board, who exercises personal motives and some get away with it. What Al Khamsa has to establish in their rules is : "We Al Khamsa can at any time remove a horse or ad one based on
research, etc".
this would eliminate their fear of being sued, which happened once before, and should have never been settled by them out of court.

This would give them the legal right to thourghly clean house, meaning to remove a number of horses which indeed have a questionable pedigree and or parentage.
the latter would institute vigerous research by expert researchers to ascertain more data in order to reinstate such individuals.
simply to footnote something in rather small print, is in my opinion still a red light
to be ignored.

I agree also that the Blue Stars I have seen, through the Mrs Ott Breeding program, are not everybodies liking. I have also seen some Blue Stars at Loretta Armano, which I liked very much, and they were totally different. They wer elegant, tall and quite correct. I think Mr Oellerich in Canada has been using his Blue Stars for many, many years under saddle in honest farming work.
Bill sheets, sen, who died many years ago, also had some which were good horses.

While we have no more Blue Stars left in the Straight Egyptians, most all are Blue-List,
intermingeled with most all bloodlines.

Mrs Ott sublisted "Basilisk" which I also could never understand. While this "1875" mare still comes through in some Se Arabians, (PlumGrove/Martin) horses,
todate, and has proper credentials, and throughout produced well, such subslisting is confusing.

I do agree, that we need to look at three organizations, which cover combined everything such as: Al Khamsa, Asil Club, Germany and the Pyramid Society.
Groups deriving from such are menmade labels and decisions, which should be accepted as such, but must be most carefully examined
bloodline/genetically and their production,to make adequate breeding decisions. I say this, because some people used these "Labels" as a sales come-on,
and some bad offspring have been produced.
If these "Label" horses are used with the intend to breed a good horse, then there is no problem. And there are breeders out there, who do just that.

I dont know of any larger breeder who strictly went by the Blue catalogue definition only, but rather looked at the horses, mare and stallion, to produce an equal or better horse, such as Gleannloch, Serenity, Ansata, Plumgrove, Kline, Flick, Bentwood, Stonebridge to the best of my knowledge.If these horses carried a "Label" it is co-incedence and not a prerequisite.
And I dont know any of these breeders who marketed their Arabians because of such labels. At the start of many importations, they did not even exist.

At the end, we really only want to breed a beautiful, functional Arabian horses, anybody can ride or drive, and which is
tested and judged by what it can do and produce. In this respect, many super horses, who never entered the showring or race track are still overlooked. I know. I refer to those, who are ridden and do work.

this is my humble opinion.

Hansi

[This message has been edited by Cedarhurst (edited 03 June 2002).]

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Becky Huffman
Junior Member
posted 02 June 2002 02:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Becky Huffman   Click Here to Email Becky Huffman     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Pete, You are with many people who don't like BLUE STAR horses, and/or
don't agree with way the BLUE STAR list was compiled.

That is ok.
and I suppose is one reason there are so many different breeds, types,
and sub-groups of horses.

but the Blue Arabian Horse Catalog is about Blue List Horses too, who are by
far the vast majority.

As with any group, you can obviously choose not to participate if you don't
agree with our philosophy or prefer a different type of horse.

Pete wrote: We are seeing more and more of these groupings appearing for seemingly only promotional purposes. I, for one, am tiring of it

my reply: you can hardly say that BAHC has just appeared! <<where do you get that little smilely face from??>>

Pete wrote: It just seems that there is little use for the term "Blue List" now and none for "Blue Star". My mind is open for arguments on the former

my reply: My argument would be that there are still breeders using those designations and breeding within those programs.

..and Pete writes on... and my fingers are getting numb!!!!

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Pete Hiatt
Member
posted 02 June 2002 01:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pete Hiatt   Click Here to Email Pete Hiatt     Edit/Delete Message
The Al Khamsa convention will be the second weekend in Oregon in August this year. There will be horses shown which typically represent the various strains. There will be many horses shown at the convention and ranch tours both before and after the convention. I recommend that everyone with an interest in asil horses join the Al Khamsa organisation. It is quite inexpensive and a fine magazine is included. Their website is alkhamsa.org

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Pete Hiatt
Member
posted 02 June 2002 01:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pete Hiatt   Click Here to Email Pete Hiatt     Edit/Delete Message
I personally have some mixed feelings about this all. Blue Star does not accept any horses from the Muniqui strain. Now they are not my favorite look in Arabs either, but all bedu tribes of which I am aware accept them as part of the "Al Khamsa" where that term is meant in the original sense. Therefore, I see no reason to justify this grouping. Furthermore, as it eliminatres Nazeer and Sameh from that group, the two most influential asil Arabians of the last century, I really see less yet to justify that grouping. Apparently little has been done in 30 years to update the other Blue parts so why start now? This is not to say that we, as asil breeders, do not owe Mrs. Ott a debt of gratitude for past works that have helped preserve asil lines by helping identifying them. It just seems that there is little use for the term "Blue List" now and none for "Blue Star". My mind is open for arguments on the former. We are seeing more and more of these groupings appearing for seemingly only promotional purposes. I, for one, am tiring of it. The three main organisations are Al Khamsa, The Asil Club of Europe, and the Pyramid Society.

The Al Khamsa group is a preservationist group almost to the exclusion of promotion. Of course, promotion helps create interest and increases numbers of rare strains and sub-groups, but is only too often then subverted into making "puppy farms" for money raising only. We really do not see this in the Al Khamsa organisation. They have kept above this frey and have stayed true to preservationist goals. Breeding fees are very low and often about $500. They are more interested in the breed than profit by far. They are helpful beyond belief to new owners. Now as in every organisation, there are cliques of interests. One influential person is adamantly against El Nasser being accepted as Al Khamsa even though he has been accepted by the Pyramid Society and The Asil Club. This person has even attempted to close the Al Khamsa books not allowing ANY more horses in, irregardless of the accompanying evidence to the contrary. I am sure this person who has been of great service to Al Khamsa and the asil Arabian horse has only the best of motives in his beliefs and methods. However, evidence has been submitted this last year that is ever more compelling to allow El Nasser to become Al Khamsa. He was submitted at the last meeting and, if I understand the rules correctly, will be reviewed at this year's convention and the following convention before acceptance (or rejection) is made. It appears that these decisions have some times in the past been based more upon personalities than evidence. But in any event, the Al Khamsa organisation is perhaps the best friend of all to the asil Arabian horse.

The Pyramid Society has done more to popularize the Egyptian Arabian horse (and in that way saving it) than any other. It's founding members did much to save the Egyptian Arabian during the difficult times in Egypt in the 50's and 60's. They also did much to popularise the horse worldwide. However, mass promotion has become a two-edged sword and some later members become "puppy farm" breeders in it only for the money to the exclusion of what was best for the horse. Much of this ended with tax law changes and temporary lower petroleum prices which caused many bankruptcies. Sales of hundreds of asil horses at a time for under meat market prices were sad, indeed. Still, some of this continues with one successful promotor preying upon new asil enthusiasts. It is hard to have mass promotion without also encountering improper motives.

In any event, we are now seeing the advent of additional promotional/preservationist groups. I rather think they are more promotional than preservationist, and I consider this to be unfortunate. I have seen many fine clubs of various interests break up due to the formation of cliques. They never seem to do as well as the original club. I hope these fractional elements due not hurt the horse we all love.

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Barbara L.
Administrator
posted 02 June 2002 12:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barbara L.   Click Here to Email Barbara L.     Edit/Delete Message
Basically what I meant by continuation was that Al Khamsa was formed after the Blue Catalog additions ceased. I understood that they took the horses that were "Blue List" as their base and with the same requirements for qualification, continued to add eligible horses under the Al Khamsa name. They were "not" Blue List, only because Miss Ott had stopped making additions to the catalog, not because they wouldn't have qualified. This would, if my understanding is right, mean that an horse that would qualify and is not already in the catalog, would currently be listed as Al Khamsa, and any NEW additions to the Blue Catalog, would also be Al Khamsa horses. I hope that isn't confusing.

You're right, we need an active Al Khamsa person to join us here. Egyptian Event time, isn't the best time to get into this, as so many are away, as I will be starting tomorrow.

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Becky Huffman
Junior Member
posted 02 June 2002 11:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Becky Huffman   Click Here to Email Becky Huffman     Edit/Delete Message
Barbara L. My understanding is that Al Khamsa is a continuation of the Blue
List program. If the blue list horses are brought forward, what affect will
this have on Al Khamsa? <snipped> I am please to see this effort on part of
the Blue List program. I think it has been needed, and look forward to it's
completion. I do wonder if there will be a need for both organizations when
it is all done?

my reply: The BAHC eligible horses : those foaled since the last update are
already accepted by AK. As far as any horses that are added, I don't know.
Perhaps someone more familiar with Al Khamsa could come forward and comment.
I suspect many/most of them may already be accepted by AK -so that also
would be a non-issue.

AK is not 'continuation' of the BAHC as it accepted the BAHC horses in it's
beginning and has moved forward as it's own organization. For example. my
BLUE STAR horses are not recognized as such, as an individual group in AK,
they are considered Combined Source, various desert sources + Egypt. -again, if I have misstated this, someone more familiar with AK can
correct.

I think the fact that there are still people who use the Blue/BLUE
designations and breed within those programs when there has not been an
update in over 30 years speaks for the need of both organizations.

[This message has been edited by Becky Huffman (edited 02 June 2002).]

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Barbara L.
Administrator
posted 02 June 2002 10:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barbara L.   Click Here to Email Barbara L.     Edit/Delete Message
My understanding is that Al Khamsa is a continuation of the Blue List program. If the blue list horses are brought forward, what affect will this have on Al Khamsa?

I agree that there are issues within Al Khamsa, and I, like many, have a lot of respect for the work that they are doing and have done. I do know that there are some very fine people who work hard for this organization without regard for their own - unlike some.

I am please to see this effort on part of the Blue List program. I think it has been needed, and look forward to it's completion. I do wonder if there will be a need for both organizations when it is all done?

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Becky Huffman
Junior Member
posted 02 June 2002 09:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Becky Huffman   Click Here to Email Becky Huffman     Edit/Delete Message
The Al Khamsa issues should be listed with their own thread ... to avoid confusion between the issues/orgs?

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Cedarhurst
Member
posted 02 June 2002 08:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cedarhurst   Click Here to Email Cedarhurst     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Barbara

I like to bring the issue to "El Nasser"
Here Al Khamsa went strictly by rhumors to disqualify him from their rooster.
When these rhumors by facts were voided, Al Khamsa still was sitting on the case for years, yet accepted horses, with questionable pedigrees/parentage, which as of this date have not been removed or kept in obeyance for further research.

I will never understand why a five year period or less of waiting, will eventually enter such horse. to me that is insaine.
that does not help those, who are interested
in these lines and what is important what Al Khamsa accepts or not. when such attitude
prevails it does put a dent on integrity and the crediability of an organization, who has many renowned researchers on board, and could lead to the assumption that political reasons are involved.

The same goes for Nureddin II (1911). Again
rhumors were involved, which todate can not be substanciated. Al Khamsa will not accept him as yet, which really makes me wonder
of what is going on.

there is a case I tried to present. I was prevented from giving such data at a meeting
to the board- I was a few minutes late-
was not even permitted to enter the room,
and falsefied documentation was openly displayed in the voyer of the Hotel, the meeting took place. I lateron showed such data to some boardmembers in my Hotel room,
and nothing was done. At least one member of their board had such bloodline in their herd.
So, what do you want me to think????

I am a suporter of Al Khamsa, love the people, respect the work they have done,
and am their friend. But I also insist of absolutely straight forward honesty,
courage and standing up for what is right or wrong and disallow politics, because that is not research nor facts, and that is wrong.
And such does not help preserving the Asil Arabian Horses.

this is my humble opinion.

Hansi


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Cedarhurst
Member
posted 02 June 2002 08:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cedarhurst   Click Here to Email Cedarhurst     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Barbara
I have over 25.000 researched Straight Egyptians in my Database. I classiefied these with the Blue Catalogue prefixes, where it fit. In total I have over 70,000
horses in my database. that took over 25,000 computerhours and some 17 years to accomplish,.plus of course the many years of earlier research and pertaining documentation of one kind or another.

It will be hard to duplicate this, unless
one is willing to give that time, has the knowledge and data referred to, and abtitude to properly identify. There are numerous horses with the same name, often the same year of birth- internationally- and the Straight Egyptian Handbook of the Pyramid Society can only be a guide to trace further, but it would be difficult to produce a pedigree of various generations from it right there and then. I tried it,
and often got to a deadend.

All works have errors and ommissions, that's human, and an Errata can correct such.
However, one can never employe personal feelings towards another author, and falsefy or mislead for such reason only.
I am speaking here in general.
I dont.

Hansi


,

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Cedarhurst
Member
posted 02 June 2002 08:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cedarhurst   Click Here to Email Cedarhurst     Edit/Delete Message
Hi
I am thrilled to read that Loretta Aramano, Mr Oellerich, Canada are included in the board. These are honourable people.

I am glad to learn that there will be a continuation of the Blue Arabians possibly pusblished, for those who are interested

I am also glad to learn that some left out, would be added due to certain documentation. data etc. But I also now WONDER, if those
who do not belong in there, are removed.

Had Mrs Ott been alive, and realized the
error made on at least one mare, when a wrong breeder was accepted, due to an error made at the AHRA, copied by Raswan and furthered to her, which as of this date
has NO BREEDER or BIRTH COUNTRY data.
And came from a source, other than the seven mentioned under Sheikh Obeyd,etc.

She would have instantly corrected this,knowing her integrity and honour.

Such horse should have been and should be kept In obeyance until the time we might find out sufficient data to qualify.

that is my humble opinion, and to be fair to all.

Hansi

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Becky Huffman
Junior Member
posted 02 June 2002 07:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Becky Huffman   Click Here to Email Becky Huffman     Edit/Delete Message
Your pedigree database is a wonderful resource! Of course we would love to have the Blue/BLUE horses noted as time allows.

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Barbara L.
Administrator
posted 02 June 2002 06:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barbara L.   Click Here to Email Barbara L.     Edit/Delete Message
Becky, thank you for this informative information. I am please to see that this is going forward.

Had this taken place before the PEDIGREE DATABASE began, it would have been nice to have noted "Blue List" or "Blue Star" on the pedigree's there. No promises, as I don't know when I would find the time to go back and modify all the pedigrees that are already there, but if possible I will try to include this information in the future and as time allows edit those there. I should also do this for the Al Khamsa horse, but I'm afraid that the research on each would be more than one person could handle. Then if they accepted El Nasser, Whew!!

If you haven't had a look at our database, take a look. It's primarily Egyptian Horses with some exceptions. Not ALL Egyptian horses are listed, but all the ancestors of those there should be able to be found. We have over 3000 horses, so far, and horses are added very frequently. It's really a helpful resource. BTW, if any errors are noted, please contact me for correction.

Take a look: http://www.arabians-international.com/search/

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Becky Huffman
Junior Member
posted 01 June 2002 11:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Becky Huffman   Click Here to Email Becky Huffman     Edit/Delete Message
I am moving this thread from the SerenityBintNadia thread since the subject has drifted.

Miss Jane Ott has taken steps to insure the future of the Blue Arabian Horse Catalog. In her own words.

"The Blue Arabian Horse Catalog has been incorporated. All the Blue, Blue List and BLUE STAR trademarks, service marks, and copyrights have been assigned to the corporation, which will be operated by President Loretta Armanno and the other directors, Lee Oellerich, Diane Wenzell and Rebecca Huffman. I'll be Secretary pro tem.---Jane Llewellyn Ott. 5/01/02 "

Hansi wrote: <snipped> As far as I understand it, since the day Mrs Ott stopped publishing the Blue Catalogue, basically now horse can carry forward this prefix, although we all do it or consider it.<end snip>

my reply: This is true. Horses that are listed in the catalog are Blue List or BLUE STAR, as they are listed. Horses that trace in all lines only to horses in the catalog are, technically, Blue List eligible and BLUE STAR eligible. Most people use the terms incorrectly for current horses. These horses will automatically be added to the lists as the updates for each year are completed.

There are horses, such as Serenity BintNadia, that have been imported since the last update in 1969, who need to be considered. It will be a great help to us if the owners, and owners of descendants of those horses can come forward with documentation.

There is a now a Blue Catalog website www.BlueArabianHorseCatalog.org As of now, it has some articles and information from the previously published BAHC. Within the month, we hope to have an index of Blue/BLUE horses uploaded so people can verify the Blue status of any horse.

There will be a general newsletter, if anyone would like to be kept current on BAHC news and events, they can send a private email to info@BlueArabianHorseCatalog.org with their snail-mail address and they will be added to the list.

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